Teacher Mental Health: Trends and Stigmas

This week Ali and JoDee are talking with Romi Grossberg. Romi is a counselor, trainer, author, and TEDx presenter. Together, they’ll discuss mental health trends Romi has seen in teachers, how to recognize when someone may need to seek professional help, and the mental health stigmas that still hold people back!

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Episode Transcriptions
https://www.teachershiftpodcast.com/blog

Ali 0:05
Teachers are natural innovators, entertainers and problem solvers. They dream of growing old into the profession, teaching their kids kids, but sometimes career goals shift or change, and that makes opportunities outside of the classroom seem intangible questioning who am I, if I'm not a teacher. I'm your host Alexandra Simon.

JoDee 0:31
And I'm your co host, JoDee Scissors.

Ali 0:34
This is The Great Teacher Resignation.

Today, our guest is Romi Grossberg. She is Australian born and has been living in Southeast Asia since 2010, when she first moved to Cambodia to manage a hip hop center for unhoused and disadvantaged youth, which landed her on the TEDx stage. In 2014, she moved to Thailand to continue her career as a counselor, trainer, speaker, and the author of The Five Minute Guide to Emotional Intelligence, and The Key, a Social Emotional Toolkit for Teens, which she took to South by Southwest this year in Austin. Welcome to the show today.

Romi 1:21
Thank you. Thanks for having me.

Ali 1:22
Thank you so much for being here. And as our listeners might have guessed, I met Romi at South by Southwest earlier this year, when we both attended a session on teacher retention. And Romi, when I heard you speak after the session about your counseling work with teachers, I knew I wanted to interview you for the podcast. So I'm hoping you can start us off today by telling us a little bit about your background with counseling teachers.

Romi 1:47
Well, so I've been a counselor for probably over 15 years, trained and started in Australia before moving to Southeast Asia. And I never really started out with the intention of particularly counseling teachers. I just counsel people. I counsel adults, and in the last 10 years or so teenagers. But what I did notice was in COVID, suddenly, one by one more and more teachers started coming to me, mostly online, even though a lot of them were local in the community that I live. But it got to a point where I realized one day that about 90% of my adult clients were teachers in schools, in the area that I was living. Some overseas because I do online counseling from anywhere, but also mostly local expats and Westerners living here where I live. And 90% were teachers, which I thought was really strange, because in the past, there may or may not have been teachers in the mix of people that I worked with. But during COVID, from the very beginning, all the way through, it was all teachers. And I found that really interesting that that was the group of people that started coming to me. Teachers have younger children and of adolescents.

JoDee 3:01
I'm really glad that you and Ali connected because as we've interviewed teachers over our last two seasons, you know, we went with the intention of helping or giving career support. But through the interviews, we've been kind of peeling the layers of teacher experiences and why they're ready to transition, or why they need to pivot, or why they need to change. And some of the things that we've heard from teachers, or people that have supported teachers, are that they have high stress levels. They're experiencing burnout, anxiety, depression, those type of things. So as a counselor who has been helping lots of teachers, what are some of the mental health trends that you've seen among your patients and clientele?

Romi 3:52
I would say stress and burnout is definitely up there at the top. Anxiety and depression are always kind of in the mix. And they're two mental health issues that I actually focus on a lot. So a lot of people do come to me with those issues, because that's some of my specialties. But stress and burnout and just complete overwhelm. I've noticed... I was actually just in Australia now after South by Southwest, I went to visit Australia because I hadn't been back since before COVID. So it had been three and a half years. And I forgot that I actually have a lot of teacher friends also in Australia and networks because of the work that I do. And again, a lot of people talking about burnout. A lot of people talking about mental health in schools. What's being done. What's not being done. And how do we retain teachers. There's a massive drop out of teachers at schools in Australia at the moment, like bigger than it's ever been. Schools are... they're not necessarily trying to downsize but they're trying to downsize their budget. So the first thing that goes is teachers, but of course the same number of classrooms exist and the same number of children exist. So now you have already burnt out teachers with a greater workload, which to me, you know, it doesn't make any sense. I don't even know how they think this is going to work in any world. And then you add mental health on top of that. You know, my biggest thing is around mental health and teachers and mental health in adolescents. And we shouldn't expect teachers to be teaching mental health, because that is not their specialty. That is not what they studied. They studied teaching. And they should be focusing on being the best teacher that they can. But in today's world, they're having to deal with the emotional stresses and mental health of all of their students and themselves with a teacher shortage, and it just doesn't work. There's no way it can work.

JoDee 5:41
I haven't heard about the shortage in Australia. So I wouldn't say it's good to hear. But it's interesting to hear that this is not just some sort of happenstance in the United States. I'm wondering though, like, we have teachers who, you know, are struggling mentally. They need support. Do you think that there's something about just the work environment in general for them that perhaps elevates the type of stressors and anxiety and depression that they experience? Because they go to work. They're on all the time. They're focused on everybody but themselves. Do you think that that type of environment impacts them a little bit more deeply, because they can't sit back and just like, take a moment to focus on themselves? Because they're live, they're active the whole day.

Romi 6:35
Look, I agree. I think you're right, when teachers enter to when they leave, the level of stress can be high, because they are switched on all the time, even on their lunch breaks. I mean, I don't know what it's like in the US or other countries. But when I've worked in schools in Australia, there'll be say, a rotation for who's on lunch duty, who's on after school duty. So your breaks are sometimes taken up by overseeing the children. So there isn't actually any break. And one thing I really noticed when I was physically in the classrooms in Australia, a number of years ago, and I probably didn't notice this before, was the amount of work that teachers do outside of the classroom. The phone ringing with parents ringing with, you know, concerns or complaints or questions about their children. Because for parents, their children will always be the most important child, but for the teacher, there's probably 20-30 per class, and they have lots of classes. So their phone is ringing all the time. They're trying to do assignments, mark assignments, design, assignments, exams, you know, and then deal with the mental health of the kids. And I think with COVID, there was, you know, obviously increased stresses. But even outside of COVID, the teachers are dealing with not only their emotions, their colleagues emotions, concerns about the hierarchy within the school, as with any job, and also all of the children. And there's a lot of children when you're talking about a school. So it's constant. And then when they go home, they're also still making work and still switched on. So there's not a lot of downtime for teachers is what I found.

Ali 8:12
Yes, that's something that, that I've talked about a little bit on the podcast is that teaching is one of those professions where your brain never shuts off. You go home and you're thinking about the next day, even in the summer, when you're supposed to have a break. You're still planning for the next year. You're still worrying about those students that you had the last year. How are they doing over the summer? Are they okay? How's their mental health? So it's just like, it's like you're on a hamster wheel that really never stops. I definitely see that impacting mental health. I'm curious, based on your experience, how can you recognize when someone may need services like yours?

Romi 8:51
It's actually interesting that you asked that question, because when I run trainings for teachers in schools around adolescent mental health, that's often a question that teachers asked me of, how do I recognize mental health issues within my students? So they're always concerned. And what I was going to say a moment ago was, teachers generally have a high level of empathy, or they wouldn't end up in the industry. So of course, they're constantly worried about everyone around them, because that's also kind of one of the personality traits of being a teacher, or you wouldn't find yourself in that industry. But going back to your question, in terms of mental health, the way we look at things is usually about looking at behavior change. That's the key indicator of something's... something's shifted, something's going on. So for example, if a teacher colleague, friend of yours, in the classroom, or that you see around is normally very smiley, or very chatty, or very, you know, talkative or positive, and then you start noticing that there's a shift in their behavior, and maybe they become quite quiet, or quite reserved, or smiling less, or less interactive with other people. So that kind of thing. So when someone starts changing their behavior and that new behavior stays for sort of a few days going into a few weeks, is when you want to really start checking in are they okay. I mean, obviously, it's fine to have a bad day. You can wake up tired one day, or stressed, or something happened at home, or whatever it is, and that's completely fine. But you'll find some people, when they're stressed, will normally say go to the other staff and debrief or talk about things. And if they're all of a sudden keeping it all to themselves and letting a bottle up. And you can see the change in their behavior from what they used to do to what they are doing. In terms of mental health, that's usually the biggest key indicator is, is their behavior change from what they were doing. Even outside of the classroom, if someone normally... their self care strategy, for example, is normally doing lots of exercise, they go to the gym three times a week, or they play tennis with a friend or whatever it is, and they suddenly stop turning up to that thing, because it feels too difficult. Again, that would be a red flag for me of something's going on that they're changing their behavior from what are their normal self care strategies, or their normal coping strategies, and actually no longer able to do those things because of their mental health. So that's the number one thing. And it's usually quite obvious. It's the number one thing we look for. And you'll notice in that, particularly if you know them, well, you'll notice in their face and in their body language. You'll actually see a shift. You know, when you look at someone, you go, Oh, they don't look okay today. If you know them well enough, you'll pick those things pretty quickly also.

JoDee 11:31
This makes me think about how when I was a teacher, I was in a portable classroom. So like an auxillary room where there wasn't really anyone checking on me all day. It was pretty isolating. And it's hard to check on people when they're kind of locked in to this classroom all day. And I'm wondering one, like, is there a stigma around asking people if they're okay? And two, do all people do all teachers have someone in the building that knows them? Is close enough to them? That's a trusting person that they can open up to? And I don't know if that's like an actual question or a rhetorical question. But just based on my experience, I know that from the kind of six years that I was experiencing these really intense feelings. There was really only one person that recognized, in my workplace, like, you're not the same. And it wasn't someone that I would say I was close to, but they were really good at understanding people's feelings, people's body language. And when they raised that question to me, "Are you okay?" I felt seen for the first time. And it was to someone that I hadn't confided in, or anything, but they just had this special skill of recognizing me. And this was a special educator. So I'm gonna guess that she has just a little bit of of that little special skill in her. But I do wonder about the stigma and about like, is there a chance for teachers to establish those really strong relationships where you have someone championing for you and your mental health?

Romi 13:22
Yeah, look, it's a really interesting question. And there's, there's a lot of things in what you just said. It can go both ways. Some teachers have a lot of friends within the school. So they feel like they have a lot of people around them. And others obviously just come to kind of do their job, and then more colleagues than friends. And it doesn't really matter which way that goes for you. Because like you said, it comes back to the stigma. And even though in today's society, we would like to believe that there isn't stigma anymore, or that it's much better. It is to a degree. You know, we talk about mental health much more than we did. We use the words anxiety, depression, even suicidal ideation. We're allowed to use these words. So that is a positive. On the flip side of that, I find we overuse those words. We use them as part of everyday language. Oh you know, I've got depression or I'm anxious, or even I hear people say, Oh, I saw this movie last night, it was so bad that I wanted to kill myself. And they're using very big language for day to day things. So that people that are genuinely experiencing these things are losing their opportunity to have an impactful conversation using these same words because some of the words are losing their meaning a bit. So there's pros and cons to mental health, in terms of stigma, and the way we use the language. I think the, the stigma kind of relates to the pressure. So if you have a circle of colleagues or friends, as teachers at your school, do you want to be the one to say I'm not coping? Because what will they think of you. Will they think less of you? Or, Oh God, now I've got to pick up the slack. You know, things like that. I've heard a lot of teachers that genuinely wanted to take a sick day. I know we have mental health day, I'm not sure if you have that also, but you're allowed to take a mental health day, which is a sick day, but for mental health reasons where you don't usually have to explain what, what the issue is. But in doing that a lot of teachers say, but if I take a mental health day, then my friend has to pick up my classes, and that's not fair on them. So there's a camaraderie that is positive and negative of helping each other but also picking up the slack from each other, which feels unfair. Nobody wants to do it to the other person. So it kind of.. it has positives and negatives of all of those things.

JoDee 15:44
I think it's a pretty common feeling among teachers that taking a day off sometimes is more work, or more guilt than they want to experience or endure. And they just push through.

Ali 15:55
And I agree with what you said, Romi, also about feeling bad, if you're going to be out and your colleagues have to pick up the burden. You know, they have to pick up the workload. And it's happening more and more in the US with the sub shortage that we have, the substitute teacher shortage. There's just not enough people to cover classes. But what I also heard between you and JoDee is that there is the possibility that you have these colleagues and these friends at work that, in the right space and in the right way, can be there for you, or you can be there for someone else. So if you're noticing that someone's really not the same person that you recognize, like they're changing their habits, be that person. It's a slippery slope, right? You don't want to make someone feel uncomfortable. But also, I worry about those people that you don't say anything, and then it's just getting worse. So I don't know, I think, personally, I would probably say something and take a risk of hurting their feelings or whatever, because it's genuine concern that I might have for that person. And I actually have done that before to someone that I know, not in teaching, but a friend of mine who I saw, you know, quarterly, and there was something going on. And so it was a weight lifted off their shoulders that they actually were able to talk about it. So from personal experience, I have done that and I would do it again.

Romi 17:16
And the reality is, is you're never going to be wrong. And sometimes it's easy to talk to someone that's not your closest friend or to someone that you know, that's notice. But you're never going to be actually wrong. If you notice someone's changing behavior or changing their face or changing their demeanor or changing their clothes. Maybe they normally always wear a suit or a fresh top and they're looking a bit more like it's difficult to get to work. You're not going to be wrong in going up to them and sort of saying, Hey, you okay? Because they're either going to say, Oh, yeah, thank you for asking, I'm actually just having a bad day, or I just slept in, or my coffee machine broke. So, you know, under the milder scale, they might just be having a bad day or a bad few days. And that's that. Or it will be something more significant, but you're never going to be completely wrong. Because if you've noticed, something's up with someone, then there'll be something in that. It's just a matter of whether it's a significant problem or just a passing problem. And, and that's okay, too. But I think the genuine question of, "Are you okay?" as opposed to, "How are you?" and then you keep walking. You know what I mean? And so really stopping. Doing it also privately, not sort of in a group setting were you can pin someone and ask if they're okay. But you know, one on one, just checking in, just want to see if you're okay. I think the bigger issue is, what next? Like what then? So maybe I've got five minutes spare and I asked you if you're okay. But then what? What if you're not okay? Am I skilled to do something about it? Do I have time to hold this conversation? Can I recommend something? I think fundamentally, something in the school system needs to be available. You know, I know a lot of schools have school counselors for the kids. But what about the teachers? Is there a support network? Is there a hierarchy of, of people that they can go to? I even know a couple months ago, in February this year, I actually ran professional development training online to an international school. And I wasn't working with the teachers, I was actually working with the counselors and support people and they needed support. And, and they the support people. And my job in in that training was to do you know, managing stress and burnout and anxiety and managing your own mental health and your own self care practice so that you can be of service to, you know, to the other kids. So, you know, it's a worry when the counselors are needing the support. And I love this school and commend the school for reaching out to me because that happens very rarely and the counselors need the support to. You know, every counselor should have a counselor. I have my own counselor because I need someone to talk to also because we're all human. But so who are the teachers going to? The kids are going to the counselors. The counselors, hopefully have support. But where are the teachers go? And often, they go home, maybe they have a few drinks, or maybe they're talking to a partner, or maybe they talk to a friend. But eventually, you know, that can then cause marital problems at home or friendship problems at home. You know, we need external people to talk to, and that's where it gets a bit tricky. And that's where sometimes depending on what culture you're living in, stigma can you know, pop into that scenario of, is it okay to seek help?

JoDee 20:38
We've talked about how sometimes just talking with a trusted person, at first, just kind of saying something that you've been thinking or feeling can take a lot of that weight off. But can you tell us, what would someone gain from taking that professional step? Like seeking a counselor versus really just confiding and relying on your your partner or a best friend. Like, what would they gain just from that expertise?

Romi 21:10
Absolutely. Look, it is firstly, just to address speaking to your friend or partner, it can be a good thing, you're right to debrief with them. I actually go for a walk with a girlfriend at least three, four or five times a week. We walk for an hour, and we just chat and we chat away our day. So that can be helpful things like exercise, talking to someone. But I did actually get sent an article this week about you know, the friends that does the counseling for everybody. And it was disastrous. Because your friends, whilst they love you, and they have your best interests at heart, they're not qualified, often to give advice, particularly when we're talking mental health, because mental health is an expertise of knowledge. So we do need to know what we're talking about. So if somebody say came to myself or another counselor, it's very much about having the expertise and the knowledge in mental health. The knowledge of what is depression, and what isn't depression, and the difference between depression, sadness and a bad day. What is anxiety? What is stress? One of the biggest things I focus on, I'm very much in the practical realm. I'm not into so much theory, but practically, what can I do for myself today to feel better. If I'm in the classroom, and I feel a wave of depression coming on, I feel the wave of anxiety of panic, what can I physically do for myself in that second? So that's the stuff that I love teaching is I love teaching. This is what it is. The definitions, because we often very much misunderstand most mental health issues. So this is the definition, this is how it works. This is how it can feel in the body and in the mind. These are the processes we can use to get through it. This is what you can do for that very in the moment, in the second, I'm freaking out needs to do something now. And this is the long term plan of how can we prevent it from reoccurring. Or how can we have the skills so if it comes back, I'm skilled to know what to do. So it comes from, you know, a huge number of ways. And I don't believe that a friend can provide all of that, unless they're a trained counselor.

JoDee 23:23
I love that. I mean, when we think about teachers, best practices, you know, relationships are at the top. So our relationship with a trusted professional like yourself would matter. Strategies, effective teaching strategies, effective mental health strategies for coping. I really liked that it's very actionable. And I think that that's kind of where our society is kind of falling short is we're... we are getting better at talking about mental health. But are we being actionable about it? Do we have enough resources to offer people? Do we have enough accessibility to these resources? And so that's what Ali and I would like to see for sure in what we can offer our listeners is access to this type of support that they need to help themselves and help them make really positive and healthy choices.

Ali 24:16
No I really think you touched on so many important points, Romi, about taking that next step to seek care from someone who's qualified. And as someone who's gone to counseling numerous times throughout my, my life, but also my teaching career. I dealt with the loss of my mother when I was a classroom teacher, and that would have not been possible without the help of a trained professional. And so for me, thank you so much for your time and also for all of the work that you've done with teachers who've sought help. And really a pat on the back to teachers who have sought help. We know that it's hard to ask for help sometimes, but we're really proud of you for seeking help. And if you haven't done so yet, there's no time like the present. With that I would love to share more information about our guest, Romi Grossberg. You can find her on her website, Romigrossberg.com. And if you look in the show notes, we're also going to have links to connect with her on Instagram and Facebook. And thank you so much for coming on the show today, Romi.

Romi 25:17
My absolute pleasure. Thank you so much for talking to me. I think the more we all talk about mental health and normalize these conversations, the better off we will all be.

Ali 25:33
If you liked The Great Teacher Resignation, give us a five star rating and follow us on Instagram, Facebook, Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Google Podcasts, Amazon Music and Audible. Today's episode was written and recorded by me Alexandra Simon, and my co host JoDee Scissors. Executive produced by Teacher Brain. Produced and edited by Emily Porter. Original Music: Emoji by Tubebackr. Special thanks to our sponsor, Paper Planes Ed.

Teacher Shift

Teacher Mental Health: Trends and Stigmas

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